The Politics Thread

[~QuizzingChik~]

This is a forum exclusively on politics! Bring as much info as u want! IM SO FOR McCAIN!

[Obasi42]

Isn't this a bit... dangerous? *Hides under bed* Hey, move over monsters, I'm scared.

[Obasi42]

Oh, yeah. I'm for Obama. And so is Cuddles.

[~QuizzingChik~]

Look at how Obama is ruining jobs all bcause he blieves in global warming! He is so crazy!


--- On Mon, 11/3/08, OneNewsNow.com Editor <contact@afa.net> wrote:

From: OneNewsNow.com Editor <contact@afa.net>
Subject: Obama Plan Jeopardizes Thousands of Coal Jobs
To: dwriterbee@yahoo.com
Date: Monday, November 3, 2008, 12:39 PM



Obama Plan Jeopardizes Thousands of Coal Jobs Fred Jackson - OneNewsNow.com - 11/3/2008 7:35:00 AM The nation's coal industry is in shock today with word that Barack Obama plans to put such severe penalties on coal-fired power plants that it will bankrupt them. A coalition of business leaders says such a move would jeopardize the jobs of hundreds of thousands of people who work in the coal industry. Senator Obama's plan for putting severe financial penalties on coal-fired power plants has been made public on a YouTube video which contains audio of comments he made in San Francisco in January 2008."What I've said is that we would put a cap-and-trade system in place that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else's out there," the Democratic presidential candidate said. "I was the first to call for a hundred-percent auction on the cap-and-trade system, which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases that was emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants that are being built, that they would have to meet the rigors of that market and the ratcheted-down caps that are imposed every year."So if somebody wants to build a coal power plant, they can," Obama concluded. "It's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greeenhouse gas that's being emitted."A press release from the Western Business Roundtable is calling on politicians of all stripes to denounce such a plan, and encouraging voters to hold those politicans accountable for whether they support the coal industry.Below is the actual audio - click to listen.


Thats stupid. They can create power plants but theyll go bankrupt. What idiot would make a power plant if they would go bankrupt in the processs? He's costing people jobs! He was saying he's help people with jobs. Whatever! This is how he will be helping us! This is from one news now a christian website. These people are also in tune with God.

[~QuizzingChik~]

Btw we use coal as 50 percent of our energy! Also he says we are going to replace it with alternative energy! We are still searching! We havent found anough to replace gas! How will replace coal which makes up 50 percent of our energy? Great thinking Obama!

[BBK]

Mcaine rules!!!!!!!

[Ydude]

Let me start off by saying that global warming is a real thing. Greenhouse gases which are emitted now may hurt us profoundly in a couple of decades. We have to do our best to stop this from happening. By giving companies penalties for emitting greenhouse gases, we are encouraging them to find ways to run their companies without harming the environment. This may cut some jobs but Obama has ways of creating more jobs for those in America, such as giving penalties to those who outsource, so Obama does have a good plan and good reasons for it!

[Chinuaearl]

In addition to what Yesu said, businesses are always looking for the way to make the most money. Previously, the easiest way was to use the coal that you are talking about, and because it costs money to look for other ways of getting energy, not enough has been done. Obama's plan is to give the motivation to look for other ways for fuel. This is not a new idea, the problem is that America is behind in raising the standards for the energy efficiency of our companies. Also, there will not be a decrease in jobs because energy efficient companies need employees as well. In addition, there will be more jobs for researchers because there will be more pressure to increase the efficiency without losing productivity.

[Obasi42]

See!! That was a trap!!! I shoulda stayed under my bed.

[Haerodiel]

First off, and this is a round-the-house rule for everyone (not that much of this has happened yet, but for any future posts) lets not have anyone attacking anyone else for their choice of political candidate, or say comments that would attack all the advocates in general of a particular candidate. We are a Christian organization after all, and if we can't manage this, I don't know if there's hope for the rest of America. There's great people on both sides.

That said, I would vote for (except that my freaking 18th birthday is freaking 2 days after freaking election day) McCain. Obama's tax ideas sound rather socialistic to me. He would tax the rich people more so that he could give it to the people who don't have so much. Using some of his own words, what he plans on doing is "spreading the wealth around." Didn't Carl Marx first coin that idea? He want to put everyone on equal footing. Not meaning to offend anyone, but while the Declaration of Independence says that the government should allow everyone "the persuit of happiness" it does not require it of the government to give everyone that happiness; they get to find it themselves. America does not exist to put everyone on equal footing, but to give everyone equal opportunity.

[Chinuaearl]

First off, and this is a round-the-house rule for everyone (not that much of this has happened yet, but for any future posts) lets not have anyone attacking anyone else for their choice of political candidate, or say comments that would attack all the advocates in general of a particular candidate. We are a Christian organization after all, and if we can't manage this, I don't know if there's hope for the rest of America. There's great people on both sides.

That said, I would vote for (except that my freaking 18th birthday is freaking 2 days after freaking election day) McCain. Obama's tax ideas sound rather socialistic to me. He would tax the rich people more so that he could give it to the people who don't have so much. Using some of his own words, what he plans on doing is "spreading the wealth around." Didn't Carl Marx first coin that idea? He want to put everyone on equal footing. Not meaning to offend anyone, but while the Declaration of Independence says that the government should allow everyone "the persuit of happiness" it does not require it of the government to give everyone that happiness; they get to find it themselves. America does not exist to put everyone on equal footing, but to give everyone equal opportunity.

I agree that we must not let this get offensive. I understand that each person looks from a different perspective, and because of that have different views. Thus, here we should only to show our perspectives to explain why we are with a certain candidate.

First of all, let me say the the major problem with socialism is that it went to far. It became harmful and the horror of government because Carl Marx said that not only should the wealth be spread around, but that it should be in order that all have an equal share with the government regulating every little detail of each person's lives. If it got that far, it is bad and our responsibility to stop it. However that is not what is being discussed here. What Obama proposes is that, especially in the cases where people have extremely low quality of life to no fault of their own, as a nation founded on Christian beliefs and on the basis that all should get equal opportunity, when we have opportunity, we should be trying to help those people.

One common misconception is that all poor people are in those situations by their own fault. From volunteering at homeless shelters, I have had opportunity to get a better understanding of the situation There are many people who get stuck in a situation that they can't get out of. If someone gets left behind in the school system and find themselves in the 10th grade reading like a 1st grader due to bad teaching or having their problems overlooked by a teacher, chances are high that they won't be able to finish high school, and will be stuck looking for minimum wage jobs. If a fire burns down the house of a family that couldn't afford insurance, at that point trying to find and finance a new house is extremely hard for that family and can cause someone to have to drop out of school to work and take care of their family. If the person making the majority of the money in a house gets cancer or some other serious illness, gets disabled, or gets killed, most of the time a teenager in the family must drop out of school to work to help provide for their family, not getting the education needed to ever get a good paying job. Not everyone gets into such situation, and, as Luke 13:1-5 says, it is not because of their evilness that such a thing happens; these things can happen to everyone. If someone reaches age 60-70 and does not have the physical ability to really do a lot of work, and they don't have any children able to or willing to support them, they would be subjected to starvation. Once someone is in such a situation, it is very hard to pull themselves out of it. They must always be working extra hours to simply make enough money to survive. Thus there is no hope of going back to school and getting the necessary education. They are stuck making minimum wage for the rest of their lives, unless the get laid off.

If they, for any reason, lose their jobs, searching for a job without qualifications that they lack is like finding a needle in a haystack. There are many people looking for such jobs, including those people most people think of when they think of lower class people. They have to compete with many people in similar situations, people who actually didn't get a good education due to laziness, and teenagers looking for their first job. Some find a new job quickly, and others don't. Add to the equation that a person over 60 doesn't seem as good for a business to hire as a teenage full of energy. If no one were helping them, they would be left to begging and dying of starvation and bad weather situations living outside.

continued...

[Chinuaearl]

I know that some people don't like me using the Bible, but I see it as the most accurate source in telling how we should live, so I can't help but to use it. There are many, many verses that tell us to put conscious effort into helping the poor. Some of such verses are: Exodus 23:10-12, Lev 19:10, Deut 15:7-8, Prov 14:31, Prov 19:17, Isa 3:15, Jer 22:16, Eze 16:49, Mat 19:21, Mat 25:34-45, Mk 10:21, Luke 11:41, Luke 12:33, Luke 14:13, Luke 19:8-9, Acts 10:31, Gal 2:10, and many others. The Bible makes it clear that we show love for God by helping those in need. In Matthew 25:34-45, Jesus says that what you do for the least people you do for him. In James 2:14-26, it is clearly said that faith without deeds is useless. In Luke 10:27, Jesus says that the two most important commandments are to love God, and to love your neighbor, and in the parable that follows, Jesus shows that this means extending help to anyone, regardless of previous associations, if they are seen to be in need.

In addition to all of this, what are the main reasons that we are still on this earth and aren't immediately brought to heaven? From my interpretation, it is for us to become more like God who is Love, and to bring others to Christ. For the first case, Luke 12:33 says that giving to the needy stores up treasures in heaven. For the second case, I believe that the best way to bring others to God is not to condemn them, but to show God's Love. John 3:17 says, "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." This means that is not interested in condemning those here, but showing Love. So I believe that we should put higher priority into showing that we care for, and love those who don't believe. They look to sin fill the void in their lives that only God can fill. If we simply condemn them as wrong for that, it seems to them that we are condemning them for trying to fill that void. This would actually turn them away instead of bringing them to us because they don't yet understand that God can only adequately fill that void. So it is more necessary for us to show that we care.

Continued...

[Chinuaearl]

Now to bring the two together. Some believe that this is the responsibility of the Church and that the government shouldn't be used in this way. However, a lot of times what happens is that the Churches that care and would put a lot of effort into helping the poor don't have the power necessary, and the the Churches that do have the power, out of desire for more or desire to keep that power, instead invest in other places like a bigger building, better resources in the Church, and cars and nice things for the pastor. In addition, many Churches only do missionary work outside of the country. I am not trying to speak against missionary work, I am just saying that though it is good, a lot of the efforts to help don't reach those near us. The end effect is that many of those who need help are not helped. Because of these factors, no net change would be done.

Now another difference in views is whether the government constitutes us or is just a separate entity put in charge by us to take care of certain issues. I personally believe that "we the people" of the preamble means that we are responsible for the government and that it represents us. If you take this view, the Christians in our nation should be using this power to use the resources available to the government to help those in need.

If, however, you take the other view and see the government as a entity set up by us to protect and make the major decisions of the nation than consider this: the government does more than that. It also hires police and other people to protect lives, wealth, and fair business trade. Proverbs 13:8, "A man’s riches may ransom his life, but a poor man hears no threat," implies that the rich have more at risk. Because of his riches, he is more likely to be attacked, and his money is more likely to be stolen. A poor person has so little that the benefits versus the risks for a criminal to attempt to take things is not nearly worth it. However, there are many who attempt to, by many different means, take from the rich. The government protects them from armed robbery by arming the police and FBI and such organizations with the weapons and training needed to guard them, and by providing a place to put those caught doing those acts. The government protects from fraud by making regulations that ensure that people are not cheated out of their money, and prosecuting those who attempt to do so. The government also protects the property from damage by prosecuting those who damage other's property and by going to measures to help people evacuate themselves and their property from natural disasters. The government also pays for the military to protect our nation and our resources. It doesn't make any sense having this all be done for free because the government must pay money for such protection measures. The rich people benefit more from these measures because they have more at risk, so it makes sense that they pay more for such benefits. That is why it makes sense for the taxes to be scaled in a way that has richer people paying more.

Continued.

[Obasi42]

I'm very sorry, but, it looks like Obama's winning.

[Chinuaearl]

Now, once the government has this money that it earns from its services, it would be so much better if this money were used not just to raise the wages of government employees, but also to help those in need. If we can elect people who will agree to use the money in this way, it is the best morally.

In addition, there are also benefits to our nation for helping the poor and needy. If we can help them become more productive, it raises the net increase and net profits of our nation. Obama does promote a few proposals that simply give money, but the majority of the organizations that he promotes don't just give money, but give education and the resources needed for people to earn that money. He also supports helping small companies grow so that they can start making products to be sold overseas and raise our economy. This raises their productivity and makes the quality of all lives in America be raised. This is not socialism because those who are rich stay rich, they just give up a small portion of their wealth to the nation to pay for its services and for that money to be used to help America grow. In addition, those who are poor are not given so much that they become equal with the rich money-wise, but are taken out of a situation where they are basically in third-world-country conditions and brought into a opportunity where they can become more productive for our nation.

This not only completes what the Church is unable to do as far as helping those in need, but also helps America become a better place for all. This is why I am a democrat, and why I would vote for Obama.

[Obasi42]

It's over.

[Haerodiel]

Oh gosh, uber mega posts *of doom!*

Havn't read them yet Chinua, but I'm going to. *sigh*

[Ydude]

YAY!!!!!!!!!! OBAMA WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Haerodiel]

YAY!!!!!!!!!! OBAMA WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are we sure? Or is that just the prediction?

[~QuizzingChik~]

I could just scream in pain and tear my limbs off im so distressed. This is the stuff that makes people commit suicide.....good luck america. Youll need it.

[Ydude]

YAY!!!!!!!!!! OBAMA WINS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are we sure? Or is that just the prediction?

It's pretty sure by now.

[Haerodiel]

Well, Chinua, a lot discussed. Let's see if I can cover it all.

I do understand the concept that many people who are poor are not necessarily lazy, bad people or simply don't care. Many try as hard as they can, but circumstances make it exceedingly difficult excell. I don't blame you for talking about that, though. Plenty of very good people don't quite understand that, even if they know it.

I also agree that the rich should be taxed more than the poor, but there are two things to consider. One, if they are both taxed the same amount, percentage that is, the rich give more to the government anyways. And also, they are already taxed more than the poor, and Obama is increasing that gap. I was looking at a website comparing the ideas of McCain and Obama, and McCain was going to make Bush's tax cuts permanant, and add more of his own. Not specific places, just in general. Obama was going to expire the tax cuts for people making a certain amount of money and up, and add more tax cuts for the lower and middle classes. If you'll remember the Joe the plumber case (lol to him; who won the third presidential debate? Joe the plumber) he actually *didn't* want to move up in station, because it would put him in the category of the people with raised taxes. It shouldn't be that bad.

Anyways, idealy it should be the churches helping the needy. But as you said, they can't always be counted on. Darn churches! Well, anyways, what I would be more supportive of would be government orgainizations that would help families or individuals in need that are willing to work hard. Thus they would give them the ability to succeed, not giving them success.

On a slightly, but not completely different topic: After rereading my previous post, I found a point I would like to clarify. I was not comparing Obama to Marx, that would be rather extreme; rather I was comparing the societies of the two. Thankfully, you apparently did not misunderstand that as I did myself after rereading it. Here is the reason I mention him: Marx said that there was bound to be a stage between capitalism and his society. I remember reading this, but don't remember the exact details, so what I say next is approximate. This stage was something like that the lower and working level people would be helped and lifted so that... oh I really don't remember. It's some concept that's sitting in the back of my mind that I don't really know how to put to words, but all I coud think about was how close our American society was to that, and I marveled at it. The two things I remember thinking about when I read this the made us so close to him were the continually growing number of labor union rights and the continually shrinking taxes for the lower class.

And over all, taxes isn't the only reason I would vote for McCain, most certainly not. But I hesitate when I call myself a Republican. Going into both this and the past election, I decided before hand that who I decided on was not going to be affected by party or what my family thought; it was going to be what I thought. I listened to the candidates without prejudice, I made very sure of that, and it was solely by their stances on topics that I would make my decision, whether Democrat or Republican. So I only say that I am Republican because that is how I would have voted both these past two election, but I will not let even that knowledge affect my voting in the next election.

[Haerodiel]

I could just scream in pain and tear my limbs off im so distressed. This is the stuff that makes people commit suicide.....good luck america. You'll need it.

It's not that bad. Even if America elected a drug dealer, Congress is still there to put a check on him. No one can do anything too wacky.

Though I am rather disappointed.

[Chinuaearl]

I have to go to bed and don't have time to address your response now, but I just wanted to say that it is nice to have an actual discussion where we can each actually listen to each other's points. I have been in some conversations where it has seemed like the real issues were not being discussed, but were in the background, so no real discussion could be made. This is the reason why I felt the need to be so comprehensive in my post, not because I didn't think that you didn't know all of that, but simply to be able to try to address the key issues underlying the conversation.

[The Forerunner]

I could just scream in pain and tear my limbs off im so distressed. This is the stuff that makes people commit suicide.....good luck america. You'll need it.

It's not that bad. Even if America elected a drug dealer, Congress is still there to put a check on him. No one can do anything too wacky.

Though I am rather disappointed.

Here's the problem, while everyone has been intently watching the presidential race, the democrats are pushing to a supermajority in the Senate and House. If they get it, then the president essentially doesn't exist. They can override his vetos and pass any bill they want. That is the looming danger of the American Republic.

We have elected a fine man to lead this country, let us all pray that we will not regret this. I am satisfied that neither McCain nor Obama would have been either better or worse for the country, unless they were the one chosen by god to lead the country these next 4 years. Remember, at no point was this election out of god's control. He didn't wake up this morning and go, "Oops, I didn't mean for that to happen." As is said in Matthew 10:29-31, "Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid; you are worth more than many sparrows." If not one sparrow can fall apart from his will, do you thin an entire country can rise or fall without his hand?

and on a lighter note, saw this and had to post it.

[Sponsored content]